Chris Cowan is a Holacracy Master Coach and an expert in peer-to-peer collaboration. He writes articles and publish videos to help people work more effectively and more humanely. https://www.makingrulesmatter.com/

Dennis Wittrock is a German Holacracy Master Coach and author of the book „Holacracy verstehen. Kritik –Wissenschaft – Praxis“

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Here is an AI generated summary of the contents of the interview:

Structure-Oriented Collaboration Theory Presentation

Chris presented his paper „Making Rules Matter, Toward a Theory of Structure Oriented Collaboration“ which was submitted to the Institute of Applied Meta Theory journal. The paper explores how rules, structures, policies, and roles actually function in collaborative settings, with Chris drawing from his experience coaching and practicing Holacracy. While the paper focuses on collaboration at an organizational level rather than societal laws, Chris explained that his methodology was based on his phenomenological research approach and long experience with Holacracy practice.

Rules and Organizational Structures

Chris and Dennis discussed the concept of rules, with Chris explaining his definition of rules as ongoing, explicit, and prescriptive expectations that serve as independent causes for action. They explored the distinction between descriptive and prescriptive expectations, with Chris illustrating how prescriptive rules create normative force through explicit agreements, while descriptive rules are based on past experiences or likelihoods. The conversation highlighted how these distinctions are crucial for understanding and implementing organizational structures like Holacracy.

Explicit Rules vs Implicit Norms

Chris and Dennis discussed the concept of explicit rules versus implicit norms in organizational structures. Chris explained that while norms are more foundational and important, explicit rules serve a significant role, particularly when agreements are made in the absence of the participants. Dennis shared his understanding of Chris’s model, which includes four participant standpoints (agent, author, enforcer, analyst) and aims to help navigate holacracy and other collaborative systems by reducing guesswork. Dennis found the model helpful for understanding holacracy and other organizational structures across different levels, from individual to societal.

Organizational Legitimacy Framework Discussion

Dennis and Chris discussed the concept of legitimacy in organizational contexts, focusing on how rules and structures are perceived and implemented. They explored the distinction between structural legitimacy (based on formal processes) and experiential legitimacy (based on personal experience and trust), creating a framework that helps explain different reactions to rules in organizations. They also discussed a four-part model involving norms that support exploring, encoding, enforcing, and evolving structure, with particular attention to how organizations balance formalization with flexibility. The conversation highlighted the importance of fair process in maintaining legitimacy, even when outcomes may not be preferred.

Iterative Governance Rules Approach

Dennis and Chris discussed the benefits of an iterative approach to encoding governance rules, emphasizing that lowering the threshold for changes can reduce costs and increase clarity. Chris explained how this approach could help better understand and potentially challenge existing governance philosophies, using consent-based decision-making as an example. They also discussed the importance of minimizing alienation from rules and the interdependence of different aspects of governance in improving its effectiveness.

Cultural Dimensions in Organizational Structures

Chris and Dennis discussed the importance of cultural and inter-subjective dimensions in organizational structures, particularly focusing on norms and the need for experiential legitimacy. Chris explained that rules alone cannot self-enforce and emphasized the role of communication, interpretation, and culture in making structural changes effective. They agreed on the significance of norms in supporting organizational evolution and discussed alternative approaches to achieving collaboration and reducing alienation beyond strict consent mechanisms. The conversation ended with Dennis beginning to explore why rules might be perceived as oppressive due to their inability to be changed.

Organizational Flexibility and Policy Balance

Dennis and Chris discussed the balance between flexibility and stability in organizational structures. Dennis explained his concept of requiring explicit reasoning for policies, similar to Chesterton’s Fence principle, to prevent unnecessary rule changes. Chris agreed with this approach and discussed the phenomenon of „strategic non-enforcement“ where rules are effectively ignored due to organizational needs for flexibility.

Non-Alienation in Organizational Systems

Chris and Dennis discussed the concept of non-alienation in organizational systems, which Chris defined as a „do-no-harm“ standard aimed at avoiding structural or systemic issues. They explored how changing structures can be more effective and humane than trying to change people directly, using an example of facilitating participation through structured processes rather than attempting to change individual behavior. The conversation also touched on how under-differentiated structures can lead to compensation in other ways, with potential negative outcomes like rigidity or chaos, and how diagnostic indicators like strategic non-enforcement and shadow power can help assess system performance.

Structure-Oriented Collaboration Discussion

Chris and Dennis discussed Chris’s approach to structure-oriented collaboration, which focuses on making the expectations and commitments of participants in a system explicit through structure. Chris emphasized that this approach does not dismiss the importance of norms and culture, but rather highlights how much a culture values its structure. They discussed the potential implications of this perspective for research and practice, with Chris noting that it could lead to concrete applications within specific systems. Dennis expressed interest in the concept and its potential to provide new insights into Holacracy practice. Both agreed to continue exploring and discussing this topic further.